Comments for Timothy Stoner http://tjstoner.com Tue, 07 Feb 2012 07:47:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 Comment on Flattening Crowns or Casting Them Down by Tim Stoner http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/flattening-crowns-or-casting-them-down/comment-page-1/#comment-788 Tim Stoner Sat, 23 Apr 2011 17:45:11 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=944#comment-788 Spencer: It's the Saturday after the killing on a late Friday afternoon. But, Sunday's a comin.' And with it the promise that one lovely day we will be caught up together with Him in the clouds and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Come Lord Jesus come. Spencer: It’s the Saturday after the killing on a late Friday afternoon. But, Sunday’s a comin.’
And with it the promise that one lovely day we will be caught up together with Him in the clouds and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Come Lord Jesus come.

]]> Comment on Flattening Crowns or Casting Them Down by Spencer http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/flattening-crowns-or-casting-them-down/comment-page-1/#comment-787 Spencer Fri, 22 Apr 2011 23:02:13 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=944#comment-787 Tim: I completely agree that Lewis shakes my complacent core. I am reading "Crazy Love" by Francis Chan right now, and it has a similar effect. My favorite wordplay in the above is "unattainable ecstasy". I could quote Lewis on heaven for a very long time: how it is the Great Dance, full of frivolity; how it is the REAL world; how it will be both beyond and the fulfillment of our our wildest dream; how we will delight in even the pains of heaven; how all Creation will be reconciled to its Creator... I like Aslan's line the best: "The term is over: the holidays have begun. The dream has ended: this is the morning." There is nothing, however, that holds a candle to God's own Word: "He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it" (Rev 2:17). The words rend my heart every time I read them. YHWH, the Holy of Holies, will give me a new name (and thus, a new identity) that only the two of us know. There is no better poetry or no greater intimacy -- amidst all the splendor of gold, sapphire, myrrh, trumpets, and cherubim, a simple whitewashed stone is the most precious and cherished thing I will receive. And for all eternity, the Father Himself will ask to see me by whispering in my ear the name that only the two of us know... and I will dash headlong into His arms and he will wipe every tear from my eyes. Amen and Hallelujah; come Lord Jesus! Tim: I completely agree that Lewis shakes my complacent core. I am reading “Crazy Love” by Francis Chan right now, and it has a similar effect. My favorite wordplay in the above is “unattainable ecstasy”.

I could quote Lewis on heaven for a very long time: how it is the Great Dance, full of frivolity; how it is the REAL world; how it will be both beyond and the fulfillment of our our wildest dream; how we will delight in even the pains of heaven; how all Creation will be reconciled to its Creator… I like Aslan’s line the best: “The term is over: the holidays have begun. The dream has ended: this is the morning.”

There is nothing, however, that holds a candle to God’s own Word: “He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it” (Rev 2:17).

The words rend my heart every time I read them. YHWH, the Holy of Holies, will give me a new name (and thus, a new identity) that only the two of us know. There is no better poetry or no greater intimacy — amidst all the splendor of gold, sapphire, myrrh, trumpets, and cherubim, a simple whitewashed stone is the most precious and cherished thing I will receive. And for all eternity, the Father Himself will ask to see me by whispering in my ear the name that only the two of us know… and I will dash headlong into His arms and he will wipe every tear from my eyes. Amen and Hallelujah; come Lord Jesus!

]]> Comment on Flattening Crowns or Casting Them Down by Tim Stoner http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/flattening-crowns-or-casting-them-down/comment-page-1/#comment-786 Tim Stoner Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:52:22 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=944#comment-786 Spencer: Whenever I read that particular section from Lewis, I admit to feeling this odd trembling inside. I can only describe it like a gong being struck by a mallet. I don't know of any other writer who does that to me. "Beyond all hope" is one of those phrases that resonates with liquid light. I think that above all things Lewis had an apostolate for eternity (in Catholic jargon), in Protestant, I would say among modern writers, he was granted a singularly unique vision of the Holy City. "Made for heaven, stitch by stitch" isn't that an utterly delightful image? Which made me think about this grim Puritan we all love to caricature, and in doing so dismiss, but who also knew a thing or two about eternity. Jonathan Edwards attempts to answer the massive question, which just about nobody answers, or even tries: how does our life here affect our life there? I would like to know what you make of his answer: "The saints are like so many vessels of different sizes cast into a sea of happiness where every vessel is full: this is eternal life, for a man ever to have his capacity filled. but after all tis left to God’s sovereign pleasure, tis His prerogative to determine the largeness of the vessel...Christ’s death and righteousness meddled not with this but left it in God’s prerogative." (J.Edwards, Miscellanies-367,Tit.3:5). "Our capacity to enjoy heaven, (our reward) is determined by the following: the degree of grace and holiness we manifest here; the quality of the good we have done; the depth of our self denial and suffering; and our degree of humility." (J. Edwards, Miscellanies-817). So by our obedience and sacrifice here we are creating larger and larger vessels into which a greater degrees of glory, joy, authority, responsiblity can be poured in. We all get full but some will take lots more to fill up than others. In a word, some will need lots bigger gloves. I leave you with another of my all-time favorite sections of Lewis in which he reminds us again of the razor's edge upon which we find ourselves every waking moment. "In the end that Face which is the delight or the terror of the universe must be turned upon each of us either with one expression or with the other, either conferring glory inexpressible or inflicting shame that can never be cured or disguised. In some sense, as dark to the intellect as it is unendurable to the feelings, we can be both banished from the presence of Him who is present everywhere and erased form the knowledge of Him who knows all. We can be left utterly and absolutely outside, repelled, exiled, estranged, finally and unspeakably ignored. On the other hand, we can be called in, welcomed, received, acknowledged. We walk every day on the razor edge between these two incredible possibilities. Apparently, then, our lifelong nostalgia, our longing to be reunited with something in the universe from which we now feel cut off, to be on the inside of some door which we have always seen from the outside, is no mere neurotic fancy, but the truest index of our real situation. And to be last summoned inside would be both glory and honour beyond all our merits and also healing of that old ache." (CSL Transposition, ch.2) Have a blessed Pascha. Glory to the Lamb who was slain, who alone is worthy to take up the scrolls! Spencer: Whenever I read that particular section from Lewis, I admit to feeling this odd trembling inside. I can only describe it like a gong being struck by a mallet. I don’t know of any other writer who does that to me. “Beyond all hope” is one of those phrases that resonates with liquid light. I think that above all things Lewis had an apostolate for eternity (in Catholic jargon), in Protestant, I would say among modern writers, he was granted a singularly unique vision of the Holy City.
“Made for heaven, stitch by stitch” isn’t that an utterly delightful image? Which made me think about this grim Puritan we all love to caricature, and in doing so dismiss, but who also knew a thing or two about eternity. Jonathan Edwards attempts to answer the massive question, which just about nobody answers, or even tries: how does our life here affect our life there?
I would like to know what you make of his answer:
“The saints are like so many vessels of different sizes cast into a sea of happiness where every vessel is full: this is eternal life, for a man ever to have his capacity filled. but after all tis left to God’s sovereign pleasure, tis His prerogative to determine the largeness of the vessel…Christ’s death and righteousness meddled not with this but left it in God’s prerogative.” (J.Edwards, Miscellanies-367,Tit.3:5). “Our capacity to enjoy heaven, (our reward) is determined by the following: the degree of grace and holiness we manifest here; the quality of the good we have done; the depth of our self denial and suffering; and our degree of humility.” (J. Edwards, Miscellanies-817).
So by our obedience and sacrifice here we are creating larger and larger vessels into which a greater degrees of glory, joy, authority, responsiblity can be poured in. We all get full but some will take lots more to fill up than others. In a word, some will need lots bigger gloves.
I leave you with another of my all-time favorite sections of Lewis in which he reminds us again of the razor’s edge upon which we find ourselves every waking moment.
“In the end that Face which is the delight or the terror of the universe must be turned upon each of us either with one expression or with the other, either conferring glory inexpressible or inflicting shame that can never be cured or disguised.
In some sense, as dark to the intellect as it is unendurable to the feelings, we can be both banished from the presence of Him who is present everywhere and erased form the knowledge of Him who knows all. We can be left utterly and absolutely outside, repelled, exiled, estranged, finally and unspeakably ignored. On the other hand, we can be called in, welcomed, received, acknowledged. We walk every day on the razor edge between these two incredible possibilities. Apparently, then, our lifelong nostalgia, our longing to be reunited with something in the universe from which we now feel cut off, to be on the inside of some door which we have always seen from the outside, is no mere neurotic fancy, but the truest index of our real situation. And to be last summoned inside would be both glory and honour beyond all our merits and also healing of that old ache.”
(CSL Transposition, ch.2)
Have a blessed Pascha.
Glory to the Lamb who was slain, who alone is worthy to take up the scrolls!

]]> Comment on Flattening Crowns or Casting Them Down by Spencer http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/flattening-crowns-or-casting-them-down/comment-page-1/#comment-785 Spencer Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:42:18 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=944#comment-785 You are very right to insert a discussion about Heaven surrounding discussions about Hell. Whether or not Rob Bell has a fit understanding of Heaven, I cannot say. Without a doubt, however, any picture of Heaven which does not place intimacy with God (or being "in the presence of God") first and foremost is Biblically and imaginatively thrown out of court. With apologies to C. S. Lewis (and you, Tim!) I have always loved his lengthy but deeply moving portrait of Heaven -- "There have been times when I think we do not desire heaven; but more often I find myself wondering whether, in our heart of hearts, we have ever desired anything else... Are not all lifelong friendships born at the moment when at last you meet another human being who has some inkling (but faint and uncertain even in the best) of that somethign which you were born desiring, and which, beneath the flux of other desires and in all the momentary silences between the louder passions, night and day, year by year, from childhood to old age, you are looking for, watching for, listening for? You have never HAD it. All the things that have ever deeply possessed your soul have been but hints of it -- tantalising glimpses, promises never quite fullfilled, echoes that died away just as they caught your ear... "God will look to every soul like its first love because He is its first love. Your place in heaven will seem to be made for you and you alone, because you were made for it -- made for it stitch by stitch as a glove is made for a hand. It is from this point of view that we can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever." (The Problem of Pain) There is an interesting thread in this portrait that indicates that perhaps we (or Rob) will not be asked to give up what we cherish so dearly on Earth. Intimacy with God is a two-way street: we draw near to Him and He is now able, having cast down our self-imposed barriers of sin and pride, to draw near to us. To be sure, the weight of knowledge transfer is entirely on our side. But perhaps God is then more fully able to give us the desires of our heart which He has placed and fashioned in us "stitch by stitch". The bottom line is that, pure as the motive may be, there is a danger in believing that "casting down our crowns" means that we are forfeiting all that makes us unique and loveable to God -- absorbing ourselves into an undifferentiated monist reality a la Spinoza. As Jesus says: "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it" (Mt 10:39, NASB). It seems we, in some sense, cast down our tarnished crowns only to pick them back up again polished and reflecting God's glory instead of ours. You are very right to insert a discussion about Heaven surrounding discussions about Hell. Whether or not Rob Bell has a fit understanding of Heaven, I cannot say. Without a doubt, however, any picture of Heaven which does not place intimacy with God (or being “in the presence of God”) first and foremost is Biblically and imaginatively thrown out of court.

With apologies to C. S. Lewis (and you, Tim!) I have always loved his lengthy but deeply moving portrait of Heaven –

“There have been times when I think we do not desire heaven; but more often I find myself wondering whether, in our heart of hearts, we have ever desired anything else… Are not all lifelong friendships born at the moment when at last you meet another human being who has some inkling (but faint and uncertain even in the best) of that somethign which you were born desiring, and which, beneath the flux of other desires and in all the momentary silences between the louder passions, night and day, year by year, from childhood to old age, you are looking for, watching for, listening for? You have never HAD it. All the things that have ever deeply possessed your soul have been but hints of it — tantalising glimpses, promises never quite fullfilled, echoes that died away just as they caught your ear…

“God will look to every soul like its first love because He is its first love. Your place in heaven will seem to be made for you and you alone, because you were made for it — made for it stitch by stitch as a glove is made for a hand. It is from this point of view that we can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” (The Problem of Pain)

There is an interesting thread in this portrait that indicates that perhaps we (or Rob) will not be asked to give up what we cherish so dearly on Earth. Intimacy with God is a two-way street: we draw near to Him and He is now able, having cast down our self-imposed barriers of sin and pride, to draw near to us. To be sure, the weight of knowledge transfer is entirely on our side. But perhaps God is then more fully able to give us the desires of our heart which He has placed and fashioned in us “stitch by stitch”.

The bottom line is that, pure as the motive may be, there is a danger in believing that “casting down our crowns” means that we are forfeiting all that makes us unique and loveable to God — absorbing ourselves into an undifferentiated monist reality a la Spinoza. As Jesus says: “He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it” (Mt 10:39, NASB). It seems we, in some sense, cast down our tarnished crowns only to pick them back up again polished and reflecting God’s glory instead of ours.

]]> Comment on Flattening Crowns or Casting Them Down by Jason http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/flattening-crowns-or-casting-them-down/comment-page-1/#comment-784 Jason Thu, 21 Apr 2011 20:03:48 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=944#comment-784 And Rob Bell doesn't see a heaven without Christ. And Rob Bell doesn’t see a heaven without Christ.

]]> Comment on Flattening Crowns or Casting Them Down by Gerson Miranda http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/flattening-crowns-or-casting-them-down/comment-page-1/#comment-782 Gerson Miranda Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:15:00 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=944#comment-782 right on...I think that sometimes God is portrayed as a means for us to be better humans, and His glory is not the top priority because we are too busy proving to the world how Christianity is a fit religion for the modern humanistic world. right on…I think that sometimes God is portrayed as a means for us to be better humans, and His glory is not the top priority because we are too busy proving to the world how Christianity is a fit religion for the modern humanistic world.

]]> Comment on Does Shakespeare Always Get What He Wants? by Becky N. http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/does-does-shakespeare-always-get-what-he-wants/comment-page-1/#comment-781 Becky N. Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:43:05 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=922#comment-781 To think that out of God's holy, inexplicable love for Himself, He chose to create us and enable us to love Him back (as pitiful and imperfect as that love is) is amazing and too wonderful for words. Thanks Tim for this awesome description of our God. To think that out of God’s holy, inexplicable love for Himself, He chose to create us and enable us to love Him back (as pitiful and imperfect as that love is) is amazing and too wonderful for words.

Thanks Tim for this awesome description of our God.

]]> Comment on Loving the world too much or too little? by Becky N. http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/loving-the-world-too-much-or-too-little/comment-page-1/#comment-780 Becky N. Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:34:15 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=928#comment-780 I find myself having the same problem as Bell when it comes to wanting to "soften" the gospel message when speaking to unbelievers especially if they've been hurt or offended by "the church" in the past. I can easily fall into the category of having a misdirected or misguided sense of love, mercy and compassion. I really liked what you said about how this can ever-so-subtly make God our enemy and the world our friend. If we start caring more about how God treats humans than how we treat Him...and are more interested in humanity being treated fairly than God being worshipped and glorified than we are no better off than the non-believer. This is exactly where they're coming from and we would have no answers for them if we adapt this thinking. Divine justice becomes a concept that is null and void. I empathize with Bell's desire to comfort and protect people who have been hurt by judgementalism or hypocrisy in the church but it seems like he is siding with the secular world's hatred toward all things "Christian" He has lost faith in God's perfect justice. Our pastor at Bella Vista has been emphasizing that lately - God's justice is perfect, just as God is perfect. We can't begin to understand it but we can completely trust in it and we can live our lives by it. It is indeed sad that Rob Bell has lost his faith and trust in a perfect God's perfect justice. I find myself having the same problem as Bell when it comes to wanting to “soften” the gospel message when speaking to unbelievers especially if they’ve been hurt or offended by “the church” in the past. I can easily fall into the category of having a misdirected or misguided sense of love, mercy and compassion. I really liked what you said about how this can ever-so-subtly make God our enemy and the world our friend. If we start caring more about how God treats humans than how we treat Him…and are more interested in humanity being treated fairly than God being worshipped and glorified than we are no better off than the non-believer. This is exactly where they’re coming from and we would have no answers for them if we adapt this thinking. Divine justice becomes a concept that is null and void. I empathize with Bell’s desire to comfort and protect people who have been hurt by judgementalism or hypocrisy in the church but it seems like he is siding with the secular world’s hatred toward all things “Christian” He has lost faith in God’s perfect justice. Our pastor at Bella Vista has been emphasizing that lately - God’s justice is perfect, just as God is perfect. We can’t begin to understand it but we can completely trust in it and we can live our lives by it. It is indeed sad that Rob Bell has lost his faith and trust in a perfect God’s perfect justice.

]]> Comment on Flattening Crowns or Casting Them Down by Nate Mital http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/flattening-crowns-or-casting-them-down/comment-page-1/#comment-779 Nate Mital Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:16:35 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=944#comment-779 Greatness. Reminds me of the Tozer quote that the most important thing about someone is the first thing that comes to their mind when God is mentioned. I think this carries over to Heaven. Rob's view of Heaven is disturbing to me because I don't see Christ being exalted there. Why else would someone want to go to Heaven except to be with Heaven? A Heaven without Christ is like life without air. Good article Tim. Greatness. Reminds me of the Tozer quote that the most important thing about someone is the first thing that comes to their mind when God is mentioned. I think this carries over to Heaven. Rob’s view of Heaven is disturbing to me because I don’t see Christ being exalted there. Why else would someone want to go to Heaven except to be with Heaven? A Heaven without Christ is like life without air. Good article Tim.

]]> Comment on Flattening Crowns or Casting Them Down by Dan http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/flattening-crowns-or-casting-them-down/comment-page-1/#comment-778 Dan Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:43:57 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=944#comment-778 "Heaven for Rob is a both continuation and a perfecting of earth"; much of this paragraph reminds me of the Watchtower (JW) literature I've seen. Trouble all around, and God is going to make it all right. That's a partial truth, of course, but our perception of perfection likely is colored by our own experience and finite humanity. Secondly, I'll attest to the fact that heaven begins to matter more to us (1) when we seriously read Scripture, and (2) when we get older. Those decades go by awfully fast, and undercut youthful demands for God's kingdom to be manifested among us in visible ways, and to be preeminent over eternity. “Heaven for Rob is a both continuation and a perfecting of earth”; much of this paragraph reminds me of the Watchtower (JW) literature I’ve seen. Trouble all around, and God is going to make it all right. That’s a partial truth, of course, but our perception of perfection likely is colored by our own experience and finite humanity.

Secondly, I’ll attest to the fact that heaven begins to matter more to us (1) when we seriously read Scripture, and (2) when we get older. Those decades go by awfully fast, and undercut youthful demands for God’s kingdom to be manifested among us in visible ways, and to be preeminent over eternity.

]]> Comment on Flattening Crowns or Casting Them Down by Phil S. http://tjstoner.com/2011/04/flattening-crowns-or-casting-them-down/comment-page-1/#comment-777 Phil S. Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:21:24 +0000 http://tjstoner.com/?p=944#comment-777 Another piercing critique and crushing reminder of what this earth and heaven are all about - the glory of our conquering King. Why do you think Rob and so many others miss the mark? Are they so disillusioned by what they have experienced in church or by church people, or by the flatness of their own encounters with God, or are they blinded by the siren songs of replacement theologies (idols)? Another piercing critique and crushing reminder of what this earth and heaven are all about - the glory of our conquering King. Why do you think Rob and so many others miss the mark? Are they so disillusioned by what they have experienced in church or by church people, or by the flatness of their own encounters with God, or are they blinded by the siren songs of replacement theologies (idols)?

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